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Progression, part II: Unlock all parts via a tech tree using mission-completion 'points' for advancement.


Lurkily

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By mission-completion 'points', I refer to the ticks on a planet that indicate how much it contributes to unlocking new pathways.  I think these would provide a great source of progression 'points'.  They don't mandate you take missions you don't like, but they also don't mandate that you take on challenging missions at a certain strength - you can go complete less challenging missions to open up your options and capabilities first.  You can completely unlock a galaxy to gain progression in earlier galaxies, or just forge ahead. 

I think we need to get every block type on a tech tree used to unlock access to parts.  Start the tech tree with the basic core, small thruster, small energy, small fuel tank, 1x1 armor, the if/not/button logic blocks, yellow ore containers and harvesters, and a basic blaster/laser.  I think we also need to implement a part count limit to normal missions, and use this tree to unlock increases to the part count you can implement on a mission.  Increasing part counts should get increasingly expensive, but they should never stop being available, in my opinion - there should be no limit to how big a player can go. 

Some parts it should be impossible to avoid progress in, specifically sensors or logic.  It's unfair to ask a novice player to choose between unlocking XOR gates or an altimeter, and rocket launchers or armor blocks.  It's simply not a fair choice to present until they know the use of those parts.  At least some of these should be unlocked at the start, and a player should not have to sacrifice guns and thrusters to also unlock logic.  (Maybe logic and sensors use the green resource exclusively, so their investment doesn't interfere with other investments.)

We should consider requiring players to recover basic parts, too.  For instance, recover and restore three blasters before you can equip three.  This would provide an organic way to limit, but also expand specific capabilities.  Parts should be relatively common, and there should be a way to seek specific types of parts, or even buy parts to fill out a particular part of your collection that might be weak.  The goal isn't to hold a player back, but to provide free expansion as a reward and an accomplishment, instead of a default.

 

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I agree with the progression idea, tho I think we should start with more options. It does seem like stuff like the shield and sensors and mechanical parts and factory and anything we can configure with options should need to get unlocked tho. I dont think you should need to unlock bigger parts tho, 1x1 block, 1x2 block, or 2x2 block, I think thats all simple enough ya shouldnt need to upgrade tho. Same with the 1x1 and 2x2 thrusters or the different size energy generators or fuel tanks. However I do believe we should have bigger thrusters like 3x1 thrusters or 2x2 thrusters, or newer generators if they ever make any, stuff like that... So those would be fine locked behind an upgrade system.

Its funny you mentioned it tho because at first when I started I thought the ticks under the planet were for some sort of leveling system and I spent forever trying to figure out what I could spend them on. >.> It definitely feels like a dropped ball tho, it should be used.

Anyway I dont think we should be limited arbitrarily in terms of how many blasters we can use at a time tho, we have a factory that prints this shit after all so once we obtain the schematics for something we just unlock the ability to use that in our builds. They're just drones after all, drones are by their nature replaceable. There seems no common sense logic behind saying "you can only make 2 blasters right now", so... even tho Im +1ing your suggestion Im giving that part a very hard no.

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Customization is detailed in part one of this series of posts. 

Requiring simple parts to unlock doesn't have to be hard,  a few missions should be enough to expand basic capability like that. That way the player quickly sees their basic capability expand, and they are quickly rewarded for testing the waters. 

It's not really so arbitrary to require players to find parts to use them.  You can only use what you actually have. That's not "we only want you to have three," that's "if you want it, go get it".

As for factories, we are talking about part unlocks.  And being horrifically overpowered,  I expect factories will see some changes and be one of the last things you unlock. 

I am not, however married to the idea of individual part limits.

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7 hours ago, unmog said:

Its funny you mentioned it tho because at first when I started I thought the ticks under the planet were for some sort of leveling system and I spent forever trying to figure out what I could spend them on. >.> It definitely feels like a dropped ball tho, it should be used.

They are being used for opening up the way to other solar systems. Not the clearest nor sharpest decision, and I do not remember their being advertised as such at any point.

I could see the resource system being, hum, "redesigned", since I felt like a grinder of borderline exploitive mechanics last time I wanted to unlock given upgrades.

If you want logic gates to be available at given thresholds regardless of the path one has taken in the upgrade trees, you can always propose a system of tiers, and make logic available with purchase of the first upgrade in that tier. Meaning that, when you purchase any one of the upgrades of Tier II, it will unlock a particular set of logic gates as a first time bonus; same with Tier III, IV, etc. It would also very much feel like an upgrade, since you can make e.g. a delay gate with other parts (IF gates for example).

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My issue with having to find individual parts is that if you want to make a very fast drone, you would have to grind for a long time to get enough thrusters. Also, unlocking individual parts would be against the lore of the game. If you failed a mission or some parts got destroyed during a mission, then you would theoretically lose all of those parts and have to grind to get them back. I think that it would be better if you unlocked the blueprint of a new part and got to use as many of that part as you wanted within an overall part limit.

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 You do have a better point about destruction. I would want for parts to be easy to find, though - perhaps pick between several every single mission. As I said, the intention is to rewardingly expand their capabilities from simple builds, not hold them back. Basic parts should be easy to collect without a focused effort. 

I'm not too hot on the subject of specific part unlocks; it just seemed like a way for the player to further choose how they're rewarded, and have strategic choices to make.

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4 minutes ago, Alpino_WILL_STEAL_ oats! said:

we shouldn't limit what players can build with ever. It dosen't matter if it's for the sake of proggresion, players should be immeadietly able to jump in and build a massive drone using whatever they desire.

But that means that new players might get overwhelmed with the complexity. Maybe Everything can be unlocked in galaxy one, meaning that new players aren’t instantly overwhelmed, but players can still unlock anything that they want  right off the bat. That and a sandbox mode with no restrictions as well.

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24 minutes ago, Alpino_WILL_STEAL_ oats! said:

we shouldn't limit what players can build with ever. It dosen't matter if it's for the sake of proggresion, players should be immeadietly able to jump in and build a massive drone using whatever they desire.

A number of games introduce core mechanics and/or special actions one at a time, without burdening the player with info that they might not be able to use at first because they lack even the most basic reflexes.

As an example, in a beat-them-up game of sorts, one might learn basic movement first; then how to attack; defend and dodge; counter-attack; cast spells; use / equip items; invest points obtained from levelling up; apply status effects; find and exploit the weaknesses of a boss; unleash a special ability (awakening, fatality...); upgrade one's gear; etc.

Some games do dump every possible info on to the person at once, which often means that one has to discover key mechanics a long while after they were taught: sometimes you are just unable to keep everything in mind, especially things you have no use for at first. This happened to me in Pathfinder: Kingmaker and it really is not enjoyable to learn after a few hours of playing that your character is specced into things of which the game only picks the better, so all of them but one are entirely useless.

A de facto tutorial and self-teaching through a progression system of sorts should help with gradually learning the game. I remember using every new upgrade I unlocked in the weapon tech trees from sheer curiosity.

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I get what you're saying - but you can jump into a beat em up with button mashing. That is a short road to an uninstall with Nimbatus. 

We have a very steep learning curve compared to most commercial games, which are based on tried and true formulas players are familiar with. I think that we will need to gentle that curve for a wider appeal, or Nimbatus risks joining a big roster of imaginative, rewarding, but ultimately unsuccessful games. 

Furthermore, we're going to need progression mechanics.  We'll need increasing challenges balanced against increasing capabilities and skills.  It's the foundation of excitement, it's the key to getting players "in the zone," that balance that everyone strives for.  And you just can't get it without some kind of progression.

I don't think Nimbatus is a skill - based game, but a knowledge based game.   Knowledge can be shared, so we can't rely on skill or experience as a sole source of progression.  

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How would this work in multiplayer? Would you unlock the Sumo arena after you complete progression? Would progression be turned off in multiplayer arenas? Would there be different levels of arena for different levels of progression? Would you only be able to use the parts that you have unlocked in the arena?

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1 hour ago, ManTheMister said:

How would this work in multiplayer? Would you unlock the Sumo arena after you complete progression? Would progression be turned off in multiplayer arenas? Would there be different levels of arena for different levels of progression? Would you only be able to use the parts that you have unlocked in the arena?

I would open up "weight classes". Sumo arenas with limits on part count and technology that require you to unlock every part and the part count available to that class. 

For instance, a division with low part count limits, but requiring large and boost thrusters unlocked, focused on drones with a high thrust-to-mass ratio.  Include steam achievements for getting into the 50th percentile in each category, and all categories, to encourage people to design for each division, as there will be some obscure ones.

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One of the things I immediately enjoyed about the game was how open everything is and the complete lack of any hand-holding, time consuming tutorial period where I can basically do nothing except follow markers. I feel like the player learns pretty fast how the basics work and there's a large and friendly community to offer suggestions and help them sort out the more complicated stuff.
I would parallel this with minecraft more than any mainstream, large studio game; if you like to build, learn, try new things, and sometimes hilariously explode, you'll have fun here.

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4 hours ago, DethLazrs4Lyfe said:

One of the things I immediately enjoyed about the game was how open everything is and the complete lack of any hand-holding, time consuming tutorial period where I can basically do nothing except follow markers. I feel like the player learns pretty fast how the basics work and there's a large and friendly community to offer suggestions and help them sort out the more complicated stuff.
I would parallel this with minecraft more than any mainstream, large studio game; if you like to build, learn, try new things, and sometimes hilariously explode, you'll have fun here.

This isn't meant to be a tutorial period at all.  This is meant to be a part of standard progression mechanics.  Without progress, you lose an avenue by which to reward a player, and reward seems to be an integral part of this elusive thing we call 'fun' and a part of anything that we elusively define as a 'game'.

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On 11/24/2018 at 3:57 PM, Ookami-sama said:

That is one beautiful dog

She's a good girl. Kinda dumb tho 🤣

On 11/24/2018 at 4:08 PM, Lurkily said:

This isn't meant to be a tutorial period at all.  This is meant to be a part of standard progression mechanics.  Without progress, you lose an avenue by which to reward a player, and reward seems to be an integral part of this elusive thing we call 'fun' and a part of anything that we elusively define as a 'game'.

I still don't think it would fit the style without significant changes to the game, maybe as an optional challenge mode or something. At the very least, collecting individual weapons will always be a hard no from my end. That just sounds grindy and obnoxious, when this is a game about creative and innovative design.

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Well, significant changes are coming,  The devs have mentioned progression as something that they'll need, and that a significant overhaul of the campaign may be necessary.  

I'm not sure how much the game will change, but I don't think it will gain more than niche appeal as an engineering sandbox unless it makes some moves to start examining reward mechanics and starts pursuing a balance of increasing challenge and increasing capability.   

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