Drone core upgrade ability, more specific component slots

[MrFaul]

I know this game is still alpha and more in a sandbox mode right now and I don't know whats on the roadmap but here is idea how progression could work:

We have a wonderful first concept of the weapon tech tree and I really like it, but doing something similar to the parts is repetitiv and boring.
Instead it would be interesting if your drone core is able only to support a specific amount of components.
Lets call them slots i.e. weapon slots, propulsion slots, supply slots (fuel/energy/ore)

With a diminishing return mechanic you could easily get a lot of parts early on but in the same time nerf the ability to build monster drones from the get go.
Or just downloading them from the workshop... those are more likely to break your part limit

Specialized parts like the factory would need to be bought directly,
a interesting mechanic would be to heat up your core if you go with the spawned parts over your limit. 😉

 

 

Please insert input below

[Lurkily]

You could just add a thermometer and a freezer to protect your core from heat.  I'm not sure constraining people to a certain balance is the way Nimbatus should tip; that sounds more like a space sim where you buy pre-built ships, which obviously each have their own capability.  When you're building from scratch, only being able to put three guns on it doesn't make as much sense.

I think the progression of drone size and complexity should be through part count or mass; it still gives the player absolute freedom, but also forbids behemoths and autonomous world-crushers right at the outset.

The factory in particular does need some balance; there's some talk of making it use energy, energy and fuel, or even harvested resources.

[MrFaul]

Slots are essentially the part count you mentioned. You are on the same track.

I'm down for massive constructs but you shouldn't be able to do that from day one in the campaing.

[Lurkily]

No, I mean the part count currently used for Sumo and such; not a weapon part count, and an engine part count, but total parts in the drone.

I agree that progression will be necessary, I just don't think it should come at the expense of telling a player he can't engineer for maximum speed or maximum destruction if he decides he wants to.  Within limits, but not THOSE limits.

[MrFaul]

Well there is no hard limit it's eats just more resources down the line, since that should scale up with each new galaxy I don't see a problem there.

Honestly I find the "overall" limit is a very bad metric, there are numeral suggestions to not count logic parts.
So people will simply start to build massiv rams out of those and then there will be a new wave of complaints.

Sumo should completely free of those restrictions anyway, a better matchmaking system would solve those problems automatically in a natural way.

[Lurkily]

Logic parts are a special case.  (I made some of those suggestions - check for a logic league post, a sumo mode with free logic that doesn't interfere with design.)  Part of Nibatus' core appeal is making drones that are intelligently responsive to your needs, or even that operate autonomously.  I think enabling more comprehensive logic without having to trade off capability is a really good idea for Nimbatus.

I'm absolutely in favor of limiting logic's impact on part count.  Either make them only consume .5 or .25 parts, or put them in a 'processor' block that acts as a box for logic parts, so that several parts can be included in a compact design, and limit their impact on part count, or just make them free with regards to part count.

As for Sumo, (According to players better versed in its dynamics,) massive rams are the dynamic now; though they're often defeated by a spinner, and matchmaking just changed, so they may stop dominating sumo soon.  

The reason I like the overall limit for Nimbatus (with the sole exception of logic) is that Nimbatus is an engineering and logistics game.  It's where much of the challenge and much of the fun is.  It's where Nimbatus is unique and where it shines.  I think progression is necessary, but telling people they have a 25-part limit but only 3 of them can be engines, when they want to build for super speed, restricts what Nimbatus is best at.

[MrFaul]

3 minutes ago, Lurkily said:

I think progression is necessary, but telling people they have a 25-part limit but only 3 of them can be engines, when they want to build for super speed, restricts what Nimbatus is best at.

See this is where you completely misunderstood the my concept, it was never my intention to block anything.
This is just a means to require work in order to build bigger drones. As long you have enough resource to buy the next slot/part there is no limit.
You keep those slots/parts forever you can only gain. This also doubles as a reward system for the work you put in.

Besides restrictions, rules are the things that make games fun.

[Lurkily]

Just now, MrFaul said:

See this is where you completely misunderstood the my concept, it was never my intention to block anything.
This is just a means to require work in order to build bigger drones. As long you have enough resource to buy the next slot/part there is no limit.
You keep those slots/parts forever you can only gain. This also doubles as a reward system for the work you put in.

1

No, I understand you.  I would just like the restrictions on what a player can build to be less arbitrary and artificial.  In many games this makes sense; but where you are building from nothing, it's arbitrary and restrictive, and the player's going to question it when it stops them from doing what they want to do.

I'd much rather a player come in and say "I can only build this big, but look at this, I can do anything I want with this big.  Is there a limit to how big it can go?"  than to ask "I can only build this big, and I can't specialize because of the part-type limits.  Will the upgrade system ever permit me to build freely?"

 

[Lurkily]

On the other hand . . . a more organic limit would be realistic.  Something like having to find or buy parts, and having to buy three large thrusters before you can have three equipped would make a lot of sense - part unlocks are something i fully expect in time, and unlocking a VOLUME of each part would make more sense to me.

[MrFaul]

8 minutes ago, Lurkily said:

I'd much rather a player come in and say "I can only build this big, but look at this, I can do anything I want with this big.  Is there a limit to how big it can go?"  than to ask "I can only build this big, and I can't specialize because of the part-type limits.  Will the upgrade system ever permit me to build freely?"

You do realize that the first statement kinda invalidates it self?

And it seems you still have some misconceptions about my suggestion, to put it like a statement it would be:
"Crap, I'm missing one thruster slot and can't afford the next slot. Let's go mining then"

But there is one thing that is very delicate about a system like this, finding the right balance between gain and required work for the first 50 parts.

[ManTheMister]

27 minutes ago, MrFaul said:

You do realize that the first statement kinda invalidates it self?

And it seems you still have some misconceptions about my suggestion, to put it like a statement it would be:
"Crap, I'm missing one thruster slot and can't afford the next slot. Let's go mining then"

But there is one thing that is very delicate about a system like this, finding the right balance between gain and required work for the first 50 parts.

Lurkily understands that you can get more of a certain type of part by buying it. One of the issues that I see with this is that what if you start off buying a bunch of upgrades for weapon slots, and your drone works for what it was designed for. But later on, you decide that you want to build a very fast drone, and have to grind for multiple hours in order to get enough resources to buy all of the necessary pieces. That problem (and more) could be fixed by having an overall part limit instead of specific part limits.

[MrFaul]

It's really not, since you made already progress so it is expected that you already have a resource backlog.
Since the diminishing return is very cheap to begin with it is at this point just a matter of button presses.

[Lurkily]

5 minutes ago, MrFaul said:

It's really not, since you made already progress so it is expected that you already have a resource backlog.

 

Part of the problem with anticipating a most common type of gameplay is that it usually fails to anticipate others.  My impression of Nimbatus (and I may be wrong) is that they're trying to provide, within the constraints of challenge/reward and progress/reward growth balances, the freedom to indulge the inner mad scientist. 

I guess I feel like imposing build restrictions that are clearly and obviously "We as devs think you will have fun playing this way" injures what Nimbatus is trying to be.

[ManTheMister]

7 minutes ago, MrFaul said:

It's really not, since you made already progress so it is expected that you already have a resource backlog.
Since the diminishing return is very cheap to begin with it is at this point just a matter of button presses.

But many people would be spending every bit of resources that they got on one thing (probably weapons, to begin with), and once they change their mind, they would only have enough resources to buy a few upgrades. What if they want more upgrades than are still cheap with diminishing returns? I think that this system would require WAY to much grinding to ever be worthwhile.

[MrFaul]

Hm first off all game should always be "what the devs think whats best" trying to cater everything to everyone ends up as some mess without any clear goal.

Second the concern that it may ends in a grind fest. I don't think that is what will happen but to be completely honest mismanaging your resources is your own fault not that of the game. (better in game as with your real life bank balance)

[Lurkily]

It's not that I think every game has to be for everybody; I think Nimbatus, specifically, is about enabling engineering madness, instead of making a player earn their way into unconventional design.  I may be entirely wrong about that, it's just the feeling I've gathered in the last year of handling it.

I'm not too concerned about the grindfest personally.  I don't think the devs would go grindy, and costs can always be balanced for a better result.

[MrFaul]

You would be surprised what madness entails if the people have restrictions that they have to circumvent :-D

[Lurkily]

It's not that I'm opposed to the mechanic; I'm opposed to the arbitrary and artificial presentation.  Having weapon slots when you're permitted a free build from scratch is basically naked and undisguised 'this is how you play our game'.  Let's provide an organic way to deny them the resources to support three weapons - mounts, or make them buy each weapon individually, or whatever.  I feel like just a number on the build screen saying you've filled 2/3 weapon slots without a really good explanation isn't the way to pursue that progression.

[MrFaul]

Isn't "Your drone core has a limited a mount of Resources to use equipment, to use more you must upgrade it" a reasonable and valid explanation?
You could even aid that with mission rewards that expand the cores abilities for free with something like "You found component X and you gain slot X"