Changing the current logic i/o method to a visual style.

[MrFaul]

Oh boy OK where do I start to get my point across.
The current method to control your drone is very simple and intuitiv and I really like it,
but it is the same simplicity that hurts more advanced logic builds since it gets really complicated to keep track of all your tags.

Hence I suggest a complete revamp of the logic system to make it more distinct from the direct input methods and much more intuitive.
This can be archived by visually connecting the logic parts I/Os with a linking tool and showing those connections.
All button presses that logic would use comes from the drone core (or wireless receiver).
This could also solve a lot of problems regarding the event propagation through a drone, since those links would depend on a physical connection.
If something breaks off, so do the logical links. This makes "sub drones" much easier to handle.

I attach a screenshot from the wiremod for gmod to demonstrate how something like that could look like:

This can get very cluttered too, but that is easily solved with dynamically setting the alpha of the connections by length and highlighting those you look at.

Since wiremod grew basically to a standard for the game and was completely community driven we archived a very high grade of usability and I really like to share those achievements and experience we gathered over the time if you are interested.

Cheers Faul

 

Please insert input below 😄

[Lurkily]

We've got some ideas on the books regarding requiring logic blocks to be linked by some wiring, or requiring being a part of the same connected structure; I think this falls much in line with those, without quite requiring a complete rebuild of logic, design environment, UI, and some attention to every input-actuated part, and its UI.  

What you're suggesting is a good idea, but even acknowledging that it's a lot of work, I'm not certain you realize just how far that work spreads.

[MrFaul]

Oh I do realize how much work is necessary, but that is nothing to be scared of after all it is a alpha.

Now is the time to tryout different things reverting at this point is still easy. I'm sure the game will greatly benefit from this change.
I watched my little nephew playing the game and seeing him struggling with the logic gates is one of the reason for this suggestion.

The current state is not transparent enough for the younger audience, however showing him the logical connections on paper helped him quickly to realize what needed to be done.

[Ookami-sama]

I myself try and link physically (well, virtually since it is on a screen) all related logic parts, so as to keep the visual plan in mind. I agree that it is a little disturbing to have invisible signals transmit from all components to all other unless otherwise stated.

[Lurkily]

15 minutes ago, MrFaul said:

Oh I do realize how much work is necessary, but that is nothing to be scared of after all it is a alpha.

Now is the time to tryout different things reverting at this point is still easy. I'm sure the game will greatly benefit from this change.

4

On the one hand, you have a point.  If they intend to do it, now is the time.  On the other hand, dev time is a resource; those hours are the points we buy our new features with.  This is an aggregate of several expensive items on the feature tree, and it's going to require sacrificing other features that we could buy with those hours.  

I don't think logic NEEDS to be overhauled to the degree you suggest to achieve the results you suggest; the wired connections for example, are basically a different implementation of this, and it doesn't mean quite so much sacrifice to obtain it.

[MrFaul]

Woa dude you are on a completely wrong train of thought if you call that sacrificing.
Refining and optimization is something that should always come before any new feature.

Look at Space Engineers feature creep and how long it took to get finally and slowly out of it.

[Ookami-sama]

20 minutes ago, MrFaul said:

Refining and optimization is something that should always come before any new feature.

When do you start working for Riot Games? They have been putting out broken stuff (client, characters, features...) more quickly than they can fix it for a few years now. That seems to be a rather common trend, or at least a number of games I have enjoyed suffered from it. Perhaps working on new stuff is more exciting than fixing bugs, and brings in more money in the short term.

[MrFaul]

3 minutes ago, Ookami-sama said:

When do you start working for Riot Games?

🤣

R.E: Space Engineers, I'm just grateful that the "new producer" they got put a stop to that weekly updated madness and favored to make it playable again. The heat they got from the community for being a broken game was very toxic and I don't want see StrayFawn to experiencing the same.

[ManTheMister]

On 10/11/2018 at 4:23 PM, TerrorByte said:

As a drone builder, I want to be able to get an overlay of all key bindings being used on my drone in the drone editor. I would like to be able to distinguish between inputs and outputs and show the key binding overlaid on the part. 
This is so I can quickly determine which keys are still free, and follow the logic flow through a multitude of parts quickly. 

Maybe a simple input/output color scheme for the keys to know which way logic is flowing...
Showing connections between inputs would be too messy i think.

Font size and bigger ships could be an issue when zoomed out...

I'm sure you have thought of this, but i didn't see it on the forums.
Keep up the great work!

I had to dig somewhat deep into the suggestion pool to find this, but I believe that it would potentially solve some of these problems.

[MrFaul]

maybe but figuring that out what works best is still somewhat trial and error, so testing some ideas is well worth the time 🙂

[Lurkily]

Sorry; when you described it as a 'complete revamp' I thought you were talking about a complete rewrite, and you seemed to be saying you'd favor doing away with the input/output system we have entirely, which would mean an entire rewrite of logic, and the editor UI, (UI being generally painful to mess with,) along with the creation of a new system.  I didn't think accomplishing your goals required all that.

On a re-read, it looks like you might be talking about just re-writing the way the player uses the UI to assign those inputs, and how it represents them.  Sorry if I was confused.

Honestly, I personally don't like big foundational overhauls in early access; foundational things are usually best more-or-less settled in closed alpha/beta.  But that's only my opinion, and I'm aware it isn't universal.

[Alpino_WILL_STEAL_ oats!]

The main issue with this, is that it would involve revamping literily revamping the whole drone building system

[MrFaul]

9 hours ago, Alpino_WILL_STEAL_ oats! said:

The main issue with this, is that it would involve revamping literily revamping the whole drone building system

No not really, it is more like a additional tab that only allows you to set the logical conditions.

But it would require to separate the logic system from the direct input system.

This maybe the case already so it would mostly a UI problem.

[Lurkily]

To be fair, 'complete revamp' were your own words.  It's easy to see how people might think you're asking for a more fundamental rebuild than that.

Separating logic from inputs and outputs - which seems like the foundation of their concept at the moment - might be harder than rewriting them from scratch.  It might be possible to code in some auto-assignment of UID's for each input/output that's invisible to the player, and just use what we have now with a different system for assignment, but there's also the risk that the result might get messy.

There are a number of suggestions for visualizing input and output connections already up; what if the input-output system remained as-is, but in the visualization of them, the player could drag and drop to copy a block's output to another block's input?  Does that touch the core of what you're looking for here?

[MrFaul]

My goal is to improve the usability of logic connections and make it more intuitiv / less confusing.
I really like to use games like this to explain the concepts of logical connections to old and young in a fun way.

Right now we have some powerful tools to do some amazing stuff, but it isn't very accessible for novices.
Of course it is fun for people to experiment, but that is only true for those who have already interest.
For people who are curious the "entry barrier" is currently to high to generate interest so they simply brush it off as "to complicated".
They need that "aha moment" for them, and a clean, easy and consistent UI is one of keys for that.

I tutored somebody with very low self esteem in class on that topic who was bend on "I can't do that it's to complicated" with byte 😉 sized information pieces and she began to get the gist. Then my stupid teacher made one smart ass comment to her and she went immediately in denial just seconds before she would kept that knowledge for years. Damn I really wanted to skin that idiot in that moment...

It is the same with the UI as long it isn't streamlined to aid peoples confidence a lot of them would never try to build something smarter.
How this is archived are design questions and I highly value this form since it allows really good results.
 

I'm not hell bend on this solution it's just something that works very well 😄